The Emotional Journey of Chicken Caregivers with Erica of Second Hen'd

This week's guest is Erica of Second Hen'd a 501 3c organization that rehomes "spent hens", ex battery laying hens.  You can listen to Erica's more detailed episode here https://www.buzzsprout.com/1624426/episodes/12660584

Today we are focusing on an new support group for chicken keepers.  Erica started a new support group, "Birds Of  A Feather"  for those who are needing advice, emotional support, a safe place to discuss the loss of a beloved  pet chicken, and friendship.  This group is FREE to all those who are in need. 

When you lose a feathered friend, where can you turn for solace and understanding? Erica from Second Hen'd joins us to pull back the curtain on Birds of a Feather, a virtual sanctuary for those mourning their chickens, where the clucking of sympathetic hearts creates a tapestry of support and shared love for our avian companions. This episode is a tribute to the unspoken bonds we form with our pets, a space where laughter and tears over clucky antics and the inevitable goodbyes coexist, reflecting on the profound impact these creatures have on our lives.

Caring for chickens is no walk in the park; it's a road paved with ethical quandaries and DIY medical treatments when vets are miles away. We navigate the rough terrain of at-home bird care and the difficult decisions owners face when professional help is out of reach. From the limits of administering antibiotics to the painful choice of euthanasia, this conversation is an eye-opener to the realities and responsibilities that come with loving and caring for chickens as more than just livestock.

This heartfelt exchange also delves into the joys and sorrows of pet ownership, from the quirky behaviors that endear our chickens to us, to the heavy hearts we carry when they fall ill. We share stories of personal loss, like that of Eggie the chicken, whose resilience in the face of illness taught us about the depths of the human-animal bond. This episode isn't just a narrative; it's a journey through the emotional landscape of chicken lovers everywhere, a reminder of the legacies our feathered friends leave behind, and an invitation to a community that understands just how deep those claw prints in our hearts can be.


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Transcript

Mel: 0:00

Hey y'all, I'm Mel and you are listening to Wilma the Wonder Hen. Are you a chicken-mouth-loving mama or daddy? Together we'll dive into the latest poultry-keeping adventures, chat about everyday life, with a generous mix of some hilarious stories, bringing you fascinating interviews with poultry owners from all over. You'll find tips and basic advice from your local veterinarian, along with new chicken keeping gadgets and reviews. I'm going to see what Mr Jangles and Wilma has to say about that. We're going to encourage and help you build a stronger, healthier flock. Let's go see what Mr Jangles and Wilma is up to. Let's go let these heifers out. Hi y'all, welcome back.

Mel: 0:47

I'm Mel and this is Wilma the Wonder Hens podcast. Today's guest is Erica of Second Hend, which is a 5013C organization that takes in ex-battery hens and gives them a new life, new opportunities and medical care and all that good stuff. Life, new opportunities and medical care, and all that good stuff. Erica does have a prior episode that goes into detail, all about what she does, how she does it and how you can help her to help more hens. But today Erica is here to discuss something that is near and dear to her heart, which is, I assume, is also part of the second hymn organization. It's tied in there somehow, so we're going to let Erica take it away. Hi, erica, I'm great.

Erica : 1:36

How are you? I'm hanging in there. I'm hanging in there. The weather's getting hotter, but you know it is what it is, so I just deal with it. If you hear little chirps, that is a chicken. She is here with me, she's my emotional support animal.

Erica : 1:51

That's okay, which, I guess, honestly, is kind of a good intro into what I want to talk about today. I'm trying to get word out about an emotional grief support group for, like, specifically for people who love their chickens like we do. They see them as pets. They are absolutely devastated when they lose them. They either have a veterinarian that can only do so much or they don't have any access to vet care because vets in their area will not see chickens. So the idea of Birds of a Feather that's what we've been calling it is to have a virtual meetup every so often, maybe start out once a month eventually, as we grow, maybe twice a month even more.

Erica : 2:46

What I wanted to do was create a virtual support group where people can join in. We build close relationships with one another so we know each other by name, we know each other's chickens, all that good stuff and the idea is to, if someone has a sick bird, we can try and talk through it. If someone has recently lost a bird and they want to talk about it, we are there to support. If they just want someone to listen, we're there to listen. If they want to vent, we're there to listen. If they want advice there to listen. If they want advice, we're there to give it. I want everyone to feel super comfortable with opening themselves up in that way. So the goal is for it to be a very, very safe space, and that is why I have said we will never record any of the sessions and that's also why I decided against something like a Facebook group instead.

Erica : 3:46

That just leaves too many doors open for people to come in and troll and hide behind the screen. Like I said, if you're going to show up and you're going to start some stuff like, you will be held accountable and we'll see who you are and we can boot you. But yeah, everyone the people that are welcome, I don't care what your beliefs are, we want everyone, whether you're spiritual, not spiritual, I want all the people to come. The big thing is you love your chickens, you want to give them the best care and you are devastated when you lose them. We want to be here for you and for cause. I mean, I've lost birds, and especially in the beginning, before I met you guys and had this great community built, before I started secondhand, you know I was scrambling, trying to find a vet that would see my bird that I could tell was not doing well and just it was like nope, sorry, we don't see livestock. We don't see livestock. Like even you won't help me help them pass, you know like compassion.

Erica : 4:53

I like I don't want them to just keep suffering and I just felt so alone and it felt hopeless. And I know we can't we can't always save them from what they're dealing with, but we can try and we can be there for each other. And maybe there's something that you know, one of us knows about, that you haven't tried yet and that'll do the trick. Right, you know. But if it doesn't work out, we want to be here to support you as well.

Mel: 5:23

So can you tell how does this go down Like, is this a secret group or is this like an? They email you? I mean, what platform are you using to host this type of event? So it will be.

Erica : 5:36

It will be a Google meet, and what's going to happen is on our link tree, which you can get to on our Instagram page as well as our Facebook page, it says join Birds of a Feather. You go to that link. It's really quick and easy. You sign up and that will put you on the email list, and so that is how we will let people know about upcoming meetings. And so now, when we're first kind of getting feelers out there because so far on the list we do have people from here in the States as well as overseas so once I get, once this podcast goes out and more people possibly join, I'm going to send out an initial survey just asking what time zone are you in? What works best for you weekends, weekdays, evening, late afternoon, et cetera and so once I get a better feel for that, we're going to schedule our next meetup. That will go out on this mailing list. The mailing list will only go out to people who sign up for it.

Erica : 6:48

I'm very big about. Even if you have a friend who recently lost some birds and you think, oh, they would love this, this is great, I'm going to sign them up. Don't do that Right, like you never. You never know where someone's at in their grief journey and they may not be ready for it. So I always ask if you have someone who you think would be interested, send them the signup link and when they are ready, they will sign up or not, maybe they, maybe they. It's not for them, they don't process their grief in that way. They don't want to talk about it Totally understand.

Erica : 7:23

So that's my big thing is I want to make sure everyone who's there and signs up wants to be so. That is kind of why I've done things the way that I have. I won't necessarily be advertising the meetups on Instagram or if I do, I may just say like, hey, for everyone who got notification everyone on the list, you know, check your emails. We sent out all the details, but I won't be sending the link. I won't be putting that out on any social media channels. That will only go out on the email list and we will say please don't, you know, forward this email because it's for the people on the list. My hope is people will be respectful and understand, because I mean, I'm sure we've all been there where we've had a friend sign us up for something that we maybe were like oh, how do I get out of this Right?

Erica : 8:14

So I don't want there to be any of that awkwardness ever, but I'm hoping to in the as we grow and in the future. What I would absolutely love to happen Cause I already know some chicken people that are therapists or they are connected and already working in, you know, mental health areas, so they can come and they can provide some, you know, expert opinion or advice from that aspect. And then for people who are into that kind of thing Reiki, healing, animal communication you know, even if that's not your thing, as long as you can respect that maybe just believing in that brings comfort to others. That's that's the goal, right, like that's. That's the big thing is we just want to kind of touch all those bases and make sure that there's something for everyone and that everybody feels supported.

Erica : 9:10

And we'd like to introduce to like times where we can, you know, talk about good husbandry. You know ways to address some of the most common chicken issues that we face. You know heat stress, coccidiosis issues that we face. You know, heat stress, coccidiosis. You know we will share our knowledge and as well as get into harder stuff and maybe, if some veterinarians catch wind and they want to join, that would be great, because then they could help us talk through stuff or maybe help people locate a veterinarian that would be willing to see their birds.

Mel: 9:41

Yeah, I mean I guess that I get. The question I would say is liability, like on the medical parts, which I completely understand, don't get me wrong. Uh, if you're in a position you don't have access to a veterinarian, I mean you literally have no other choice but to just try and figure it out. Now, when I had chickens first started, they didn't have all this. Well, they may have, but I just didn't know it existed, like the community chicken community, and never even thought about needing a veterinarian for a chicken.

Mel: 10:16

There's that thing of a lot of people just see them as livestock and then there's people like us that see it, you know, as a companion animal. So I'm very blessed to have a veterinarian that it's not even the same veterinarian that sees my dogs and cats, my. I have a separate veterinarian that is a small vet veterinarian, but they also have a large arena for horses and cattle and you. They have a separate part of their building for farm animals and that's what chickens and my geese are considered farm animals. So we go there. But, like the advice part, you know, how would you handle that? You know, if someone did join and say you know, my chicken is very sick. You know what someone did.

Erica : 11:06

Join and say you know my chicken is very sick. You know what should I do? So I always, always, always so, and again I have. I have also been very blessed to have access to veterinarians. There's like three really good ones that I work with, that like one of them she's even adopted from us Right. So she's very passionate about the cause.

Erica : 11:31

And I will tell you right now I am very aware of my limits and what I should and should not say, like I, because I also don't ever want to have someone come back and be like oh, that thing you told me to do, it killed my chicken. I don't want that on my conscience. No, so, first and foremost, if someone says they have a very sick chicken, I always say you should get it seen by a vet if you can, and I start there. And then if they come back with well, I've tried everything, I can't find anyone that will see chickens, or I don't have a vet, or they're too far away, I don't have money Then we kind of go from there.

Erica : 12:15

You know well, what have you already tried? What are the symptoms? And I start with very basic stuff. But, like even me, personally I am very hesitant to recommend anything like antibiotics unless a bird has been specifically tested for something by a veterinarian, and that's also something that usually you have to get from a veterinarian. So things like that I you won't ever see me out there just being like, oh, here's the dosing for this and treat them with that. I will say it sounds like your bird possibly needs antibiotics, but you need to get them seen by a vet so they can be tested, because different antibiotics, right, cover different things and you don't want to give them the wrong thing, because then that could make things much worse and you don't want that either right and I'm not.

Mel: 13:05

I'm definitely not saying not give advice, that's not. That's not what I was leading up to. I mean, we, we answer dms from people and you know and usually when I answer I'll point them to, like merc vetcom, that you know, says yes this is what you do or whatever you know.

Mel: 13:22

I always try to back it up with research or a science based article. But definitely people need a place where they can go and as long as you have, like you know, a standard of care like this is the standard of care, this is what you know you should do, this is what you know you should do. And then when it gets into some of that deeper stuff that you really are just guessing at, because unless you get a fecal done or something like that done, you really are just kind of guessing. Even like with x-rays, you know if their crops not working right, you know they could have something lodged they could have. You know there's lots of things that could. They could have?

Erica : 14:01

Yeah, they could have cancer. You know, like it could not just be. I can't make that call Right.

Mel: 14:04

But I mean, I definitely see the need and I definitely support it because you know, when you have no veterinarian and you've searched all that you can search, let's ask someone who's had chickens a long time. Taking that with caution, as in this, may not work for your bird. Right With caution, as in this, may not work for your bird.

Erica : 14:25

Right, and we always say that we're like, first of all, like we're not veterinarians, and this may or may not work. You know it's. And you also have to be comfortable with doing whatever it is, because sometimes a bird will be so dehydrated that it's like the only way to get it the amount of fluid that it needs to not die right then is to do um sub-q fluids. But again, not everyone has access to the right size of needle or the right size of syringe or the actual fluids that need to go, and they also don't know how, where, where would they put the fluid. You know, in those cases it's like you need to take it to a vet because you're not going to get those things quickly. But we do our best with what we have Right.

Mel: 15:23

I know we talked about when you have very sick birds. This is kind of jumping ahead, but it's just popped in my mind. Oh, you're fine. When you have a very, very sick bird you don't have access to a veterinarian and I know people say, well, just take it to a veterinarian Drive. Two hours to a veterinarian Drive, three hours to a veterinarian Okay.

Erica : 15:43

That costs money.

Mel: 15:44

That's exactly right. Not everyone starts with the same resources. That doesn't mean that they don't love that bird any less or any more than you do. You know that's a whole nother subject about resources. You know, just because you don't have the same resources doesn't mean you even shouldn't have. I hear that a lot. Well, you shouldn't have your birds. Then if you can't take them to a vet or you're not living next to a vet, come on, come on, come on. Okay. But my question, right, we need companions. So my question, uh, was, or my thought was you know, if it gets to that end of the life, are you going to have those hard conversations of maybe how that you could, um, euthanize your bird? I mean, I only comes up because this is something that's not really talked a whole lot about and I think a lot of people need.

Mel: 16:33

If you don't have a veterinarian, you need to know how to end the suffering of one of your birds right.

Erica : 16:41

Right Now I will say like because me personally I know even if my bird was like suffering, I could not like I know the ways that people can do it. I don't know enough specifics to be able to walk someone through that process Like the best I could do would be point someone to the internet because I know there is stuff out there about it or maybe someone else in the group has had to do it. I personally wouldn't know where to point someone because my birds have all either passed naturally or they've been euthanized by a vet because I have I I'm lucky to have that now growing up. It's a whole other story what happened with with the animals. But again, that was me trying to distance myself from that and not take part.

Erica : 17:33

But if, if someone came into the group and we all kind of had that that feeling of I think you've really done everything you can and this bird is at a point where it's really suffering and you need to like, consider other things, I would have no problem allowing those discussions. I don't, I'm saying right now I would not be the best person to give advice on how to do that because I don't know, but if there were other people who had that knowledge, I wouldn't say, no, you can't talk about that. Because, first and foremost, that bird suffering is not what we want, and the longer that bird suffers, that also causes more pain for the owner, and we don't want that either. They want their bird to finally be at peace. So if there's a way to do that, then we're going to quickly and end that suffering that someone can help with.

Mel: 18:29

I am okay with that the only reason I brought that up is because I did see in a group different group doesn't have anything to do with you or anybody on the chicken community, but in a little um over on facebook but somebody had an injured bird and she absolutely loved it. She was completely distraught but a hawk had got it and it wasn't not to be graphic or anything, but it was definitely not.

Mel: 18:55

I mean chickens heal so good, I mean they really do, uh, but but you can tell this was, this was the end and she didn't know what to do. She didn't have no veterinarian. She, she literally didn't know what to do to make it stop suffering and it was heartbreaking, but it did seem like a few people did message her privately to help her through that.

Erica : 19:19

Now I will say, like the only thing that I'm a bit hesitant about when it comes to people and again, I know everyone doesn't have access to a vet and it's really hard. But I would say if there was a way that someone knew, let's say more medicinal to help that process along.

Erica : 19:58

I would very much promote that or back that, more than I would. The other methods, yes, yes, yes, go well and it ended up causing more pain and suffering to the bird and the person that did it was like, oh my God, like freaking out, and so I would not want that to potentially happen, especially if this person has never done it before and they don't know what they're doing. So I would say like, hey, if you know of some medications that maybe give a little bit too much of that can help them go in their sleep, that's more of what I would highly, highly recommend over the other methods. But that's just me not wanting things to go bad and make the situation worse and more traumatic.

Mel: 20:43

I'm in my she shed, which is where I podcast and Nugs. Her goose pen is right next to mine and and she hears my voice and she's screeching.

Erica : 20:52

That's Blossom over here. She's making her sounds. I was like I don't know if you can hear her, but she sees some bug that's on the window right now and she's like freaking out. She's like Mom, why aren't you like taking care of this? Oh, there she goes, she's like. So I can't hear Nugs at all, though. That's good.

Mel: 21:08

You're fine, that's good. Nugs is crazy. It's mating season and she don't have a mate and I've been looking for a mate for her. You know it's hard to find an adult gander. He doesn't know her, he doesn't know me, and if you know anything about geese, they're very protective. So if you don't bond with them early on, you're pretty much fair game. So I'm trying to figure out how I would do that and plus quarantine him because I don't want any sick birds yeah my chickens or my geese, I would literally die.

Erica : 21:43

So this may be a stupid question, but could she potentially like, even if they didn't have babies, but if she just like, really bonded with him, like one of those, like wild canadian geese who lost a mate, like, could, like, could that?

Mel: 22:03

happen. I saw someone talking about this. They actually have one that had that has taken up with their flock and it you know, because they come and go throughout the year. He would come and then he would hang out with the girls, the ladies, and they would make their little nest and he would protect their nest and stuff and then he would go back and then he's like I right bye, I'll be back next year.

Erica : 22:33

I'll be back in a little bit, yeah that's funny I don't know. I because I do see like it's actually it's sad because I see it pretty frequently anywhere I've lived. So you have geese, you have the canadian geese all over right and a since like one will get hit by a car, and then there's just one alone and that was its mate, and it's like wandering around alone, like just in distress, and I always wondered like could you potentially take that goose?

Mel: 23:05

and introduce it to a flock. I mean, I guess, if you want to go to federal federal prison, you know, I mean I don't you know, so I don't know either but, but if he, but if he flew in, yes, if he flew in like a sheet, would he be? Allowed, you know okay, so that.

Erica : 23:24

So that could be a cute love story.

Mel: 23:26

Maybe you need to maybe, maybe, I don't know. I even thought about buying her. Like you can go online and get uh toulouse geese, which is what she is, and you can order them.

Mel: 23:38

But you have to order at least three or four, I think it's four, I don't remember. But, um, yeah, and I don't really want that many geese. And then what if it's three ganders? And then I'm stuck. I can't do that. You can't have that many, so then I'd have to build a whole nother place to house them. So I'm just really picky, right this minute. Unless, like a gander falls into the, it doesn't even have to be a male. I mean, it could be a female. If I was going to get one, though, I would want it could be a female. If I was going to get one, though, I would want it to be able to have little nugs babies. Right, I mean, you can get a female, they, they don't care male or female, they're gonna mate in the pool all day long. Um, you're just not gonna have any babies.

Mel: 24:21

But anyway, that conversation went left, didn't it?

Erica : 24:25

no, you're not. No, I was. Just I was. And when you were talking about, you're like I don't want that many geese. I'm just thinking my dad had a goose, a pet goose, and this goose, well, I guess, yeah, it would be because the boys are Ganders and the girls are goose.

Erica : 24:41

So, yeah, so it was a gander. His name was Pacho and this guy lived to be at least he was at least 25 years old. This guy lived to be at least he was at least 25 years old and he was very like. My dad was his only person Anyone else tried to get near my dad. He like just oh, and he was mean, he would attack you. And he taught his three sons to be exactly the same. And so it was these four geese protecting my dad all the time, and it was just so. They live a long time. So if you get some that aren't nice, I know what do you do.

Mel: 25:18

I have Jack and Shelby, which is a bonded pair, which is the other Chinese geese, and Jack hates everybody unless it's me or Robert, and if you come in the yard he will run you out, and everybody unless it's me or robert, and if you come in the yard he will run you out. And he chased the fedex man the other day. He didn't get to him because he knew they were out and you could just see him turning around and looking and running it was awful.

Mel: 25:40

I don't allow that. I don't think it's funny, but it was funny for a second and right, I mean you had your chuckle and then it's like be good I don't. I don't just allow them to, you know, chase people up and down the road, but to have a whole flock of them trying to control them, no, thank you, I don't want it.

Erica : 26:00

I mean, I got self-control, the chickens are just way more chill, they they're not as much trouble geese are.

Mel: 26:08

you've got to be pretty dedicated, I think, to take care of them, because they have different nutritional needs and all kinds of stuff. But anyway, that's enough of that. Yeah no, you're good.

Erica : 26:23

I like talking about all sorts of things, it's okay. Okay, that was the big points I really wanted to hit. Were people have to make that choice to sign up on their own right? Yeah, let's recap, let's get a recap. Yeah.

Mel: 26:37

Erica here it.

Erica : 26:39

It won't be recorded, so people can share as much or as little as they want. You can cry, we we can, you know, and because I do understand there are people who, you know, grieve in a way where they may not want to give details, they may never want to talk about it, you know, but going and hearing other people talk helps them. So, yeah, so you will have to sign up for the mailing list. That is where all the information will be put out is through the mailing list, and you can do that through the link tree on Instagram and our Facebook pages. We will not spam you, so the only information that will go out on this list is when I get enough people, I'm going to send out that initial survey and then it will be here's meeting details and here's a reminder. That's it Again. If you know someone who you feel would be interested, send them the sign up link. Don't sign them up. Meetings will never be recorded. So that allows people to be as vulnerable as possible and that I'm trying to have a sense of privacy, but also people feel protected. The hope is we all learn each other's names. We build a strong sense of community. Help each other out Now. It's not necessarily required to like show your face on the Google Meet, but I will ask that people use their real names, just so that we know who you are and we can put a name to your story. And I will say if we ever catch wind that someone's out there sharing people's information, you'll be booted. I am hoping people will be respectful, because you wouldn't want that to happen to you. No trolls, no disrespect will be allowed.

Erica : 28:28

Like I said, I want it to be a very safe space, different beliefs and ideas welcome. No question is a stupid question. We all started somewhere and repetition is key, right? Like you, the the more you hear something, it stays in your head. So if we've already talked about it before, that's fine. We'll talk about it again, because if it helps someone to hear it over and over again, that's our goal. We want to be there for people like us who absolutely love their birds. And if you are someone who thinks it's funny to make jokes about how much we love our birds, this group is not for you, right? This is not for you. Like I, you have your own stuff. You, you stay in your lane, we'll stay in ours.

Erica : 29:14

This is for a very specific type of person, and that is exactly why I created it, because I I didn't see that kind of support for you know, cause that's the thing is on social media, you know, there have been times like I wanted to share a lot of details about what happened with a bird or like, and it may be too graphic for some, or, just because it's under that secondhand name, I didn't necessarily feel safe sharing that much. And so, again, this is a place where you'll be able to share as much or as little you know, and, and we can say, to like, if there are people who are, you know, less comfortable with hearing all that, we can ask people to kind of give like a warning, like hey, I'm about to talk about this, is that okay? And if someone doesn't want to hear it, they can leave or mute until it's done. But yeah, that's the big thing is, I want everyone to feel safe, welcome and like they have a community that's there to support them.

Mel: 30:18

I think it's a wonderful thing. Like you said, we all grieve differently and we've lost. I mean you just have to. I still have some of my daughters on my original flock and they're up in like eight or nine years old now and so you know, over the last 15 years, obviously you're going to have some type of turnover, even with longevity of birds, and when we post about, you know, losing one, like you said, me how I grieve is, I don't really go into a lot of it. I I like to visually, so I make like a little video or something, and it's not for show, it's for me. It it helps me to remember, you know, all the conversations we had together and I mean with my birds, like the conversations we've had and you know, and the times that we've.

Erica : 31:11

It's something you can go back to and it's a happy memory it is, it's things that you keep.

Mel: 31:15

I keep it on my phone and I can look back and you know those things do.

Erica : 31:19

They help you heal um and honestly, like even each bird is different Like there are some losses that I have never wanted to talk about because they were just too traumatic. There are ones that got me really fired up, like I want to talk about it because I'm so angry about the way that this happened. There are ones that were just so crushing I couldn't talk about it for a while but then I was like you know, I need to talk about it because that's going to help me heal. In this case, it's been different each time and, like with Eggie, she's the one I just I most recently lost. So she I didn't really put too much in my tribute post to her Cause it was still like I and and that was kind of what got me fired up too, about like you know what I need.

Erica : 32:18

I really need to make this group happen, because I was in such a dark place after her loss and what ended up happening was she had cancer and she was now. She was over six years old, so she was considered senior, right, and they're more susceptible to that. But the most frustrating thing for me and it also frustrated my vet is we got confirmation that it was cancer and what kind of cancer it was, and even then it was, the vet felt awful because she was like well, she's considered livestock, like there's nothing we can do. And so essentially, like I was told, because of the classification of the type of animal that she is, I had to just watch her slowly deteriorate and die and then, when that time came, make the call and that was like the most gut wrenching thing for me, like I just I was angry, I was devastated, I all these things at once because it was like, so even if, let's say, a treatment was available, right, and let's say it costs a couple thousand dollars just to give it a shot, to give me a chance to try and save my bird, so because she's considered food animal, there's not even an exemption or something that I can get to try. That Like would I really be spending that kind of money on this animal if I was planning on using it for food purposes? Like that was.

Erica : 33:50

It too is like there's no process for recognizing that certain of these animals are truly deeply loved pets and so, with a lot of things, we're told sorry, because they're in that classification, we can't do anything, and so you can either euthanize now, right, or you can, you know, give them some more happy time and and wait till it. And I was just just having to make that call. And that's the thing too, is getting a diagnosis like that and knowing that there's absolutely nothing that can be done and knowing what the end result is going to be. You just don't know when that was. That was really really tough. And so now, like you know, that's the thing is most of my flock is most of my flock is older. So I was just like, is this going to keep happening?

Erica : 34:46

Like this is going to, this is going to like devastate me, like I can't, I can't handle this. And so I knew like, if there are other people that handle it like me, like we need each other, we need each other.

Mel: 35:02

I agree and I think it's great and I hope you get lots and lots of people and I'm pretty sure we are signed up for that. Yes, I believe you are. Yes, I don't know what's going on in life anymore.

Erica : 35:15

No, I'm confused. Yeah, there's been so much, so so much and that's the thing too is like it takes a lot out of you. It really does, and that messes with your brain and just like how you function.

Mel: 35:32

And with your brain and just like how you function and it's, it's a lot. I don't think people. Well, when I say people, I just maybe I say me. But when you have so many things that you have to do, you know, like the work part, the family part, uh, you know life part. But then you have the things you like to do, like hang out with your birds. You know, look at birds, look at other people's birds, you know your garden and all that other stuff. So life just gets like this balance. You have to.

Erica : 35:59

You have to make sure that you're getting the good stuff and not just the well, and when you lose a bird, it makes that enjoying your birds hard for a bit right, because you're like, well, oh no, what did I miss? What could I have caught sooner? And so for a while there you're just like completely on edge and like everything is just oh no, now this one. And so that's another thing I'm hoping that this group will help with. Is, you know, trying to help with some of that anxiety that what anticipatory grief is that what it's called when, like before you even lose an animal, you're already thinking about all the ways that you might lose them and you can't just enjoy their presence, and it makes it so hard.

Mel: 36:48

I think a lot of people, not a lot, but I know some people who have switched.

Mel: 36:52

I think it's a lot their brains to where it's more like micromanagement of your flock. And I'm not saying that, you know, you, you definitely need to keep an eye on them. We, we say that all the time. You know, do a little chicken checkup, make sure you, make sure you know you do X, y and Z just to keep ahead of it. But I think sometimes you cross over and it does.

Mel: 37:18

It can create some anxiety of really micromanaging. You know, and what you brought up when you were saying that about you know the grief, the anticipation of going to lose, you know, or the anger when Coco died, when she was eight. I mean people, oh, what can you say? You know, typically chickens don't live. I mean, yes, they can live from, you know, they say eight to 10 years or 10 to 12 years, you know, and they can live longer in certain circumstances. But she was eight, she got attacked by a hawk in january. She beat that hawk, she, we, I fixed her up. You know even the open gashes. You know she was on antibiotics. We went to the vet. She had pain. I mean, that girl was just cooking and then like two months cancer.

Mel: 38:04

She had eyp and she had tumors and she, yeah, I couldn't do it anymore. Like I knew. She got to the point where she was suffering and I took her and to her vet and I'm very grateful that they could put, you know, put her to sleep in a very natural way very quickly I mean it was instantly, but I was pissed. I was pissed. I love my chickens, but it wasn't the same. Coco was like the daughter of one of my first hens.

Erica : 38:46

And you're like we thought we beat this thing right, like you survived this awful thing and then, and that seems to happen, and sometimes I wonder, like, do those stressful events, yeah, I?

Mel: 38:58

believe they make it does that trigger something?

Erica : 39:01

I?

Mel: 39:01

think it maybe didn't, and it's like I think it just triggered her not being able to fight it any longer to fight it.

Erica : 39:08

Yeah, and that's, and that's something too that like is so scary, which is why I'm always like, okay, how do I minimize stress with my chickens, like, if it's too hot, if it's too cold, if, if they don't have enough food, they don't have enough water, if there's loud sounds, you know like everything and molting coming into lay, you know like all these things can trigger something. And so it just it feels like you're constantly on edge and like with Eggie, that girl and I'd never seen this before, in a way, oddly, it was comforting, like so I it's not to say she didn't pass peacefully, she, she did. She, she passed peacefully, the way that she was euthanized. But that girl, she was fighting it hard Like, and I kind of, in an odd way, saw that as like a final gift, because I knew like she had already been fighting so hard.

Erica : 40:13

I knew like she had already been fighting so hard, like I knew she did not want to go and she they, especially these spent girls, they have this like pride to them, like they just will not let go on their own, and so, like every time, like you have to help them.

Erica : 40:31

And with her she just was like nope. And she just was like nope, and she just kept fighting it and fighting it, fighting it, and she even like looked up at me and she just like locked eyes and I swear I heard in her voice like I'm so sorry, I didn't want this and I want you to know that, you know. And then I was like it's okay, it okay, and right then she closed her eyes and then that was it, and I was just like oh my God. And and you know like when people tell a story like that about a cat or a dog, everyone's like oh my gosh, you know, and they're crying with you. But there are times, if you tell that story about a chicken, like people are going to laugh at you, you know like like you're crazy.

Erica : 41:14

And I will tell you right now.

Erica : 41:16

I am grateful because at the time that I had to make that call, it was on a fricking weekend, late at night and she, just she went downhill fast and I was like I can't do this and like she is weird to that point where she is about to really be suffering and I can't do this, and like she is weird to that point where she is about to really be suffering and I can't do this.

Erica : 41:36

And so my, my friend, who is a vet, but she's not a vet for for chicken, she's not a chicken specific vet, but she's learning. She was out of town and so she called her, her other vet friend who worked at like a 24 hour clinic or an ER type situation, and she's like, if I talk you through what to do, will you do this? This is for my friend, she doesn't want her bird to suffer. She was like, well, I have no experience with chickens, but yes, I will do it. So we went in and she, she said you know, I don't know anything about chickens and at first they were kind of like, well, I don't know if you should be here for this, and I'm like I am going to be here.

Erica : 42:18

And so she talked to my friend who was like, look, it's Erica, she knows what to expect, she knows what might happen, but these are her babies, you need to let her be here. And she's like, okay, okay. And so she told her exactly what to do. She did everything beautifully and she even said like at the end, after everything, like she was tearing up.

Erica : 42:43

And she even was like I never thought I would get like this over a chicken, like I've never seen someone have such a strong bond with you know a chicken and she's like you have know a chicken. And she's like you have me questioning you know myself and she's like this was so beautiful and so sad. And she just was like I am, I mean, maybe I should get chickens, like she's like you know it. It changed her perception of them seeing, cause that was. It was a very tough thing to do, you know, but the way that she saw me react with a chicken, like she'd seen so many other people do with cats and dogs, I think really opened her eyes to these are just as worthy of being pets to people, and people love them, you know. And and she said she was really glad that she could help me, so that my animal was no longer suffering.

Mel: 43:39

Coco and she was euthanized and I sat with her. Obviously any that I've ever had euthanized, I've sat with them, just like I would my dogs or cats, and we always get some of the feathers, the tail feathers, and I get to bring that home with me and I have a big vase that's in my closet. It has all of the tail feathers from everyone that you know and some are buried out here. They pass naturally. So I just they have a little pet cemetery out there, um, but yeah, what I wanted to say was is that the veterinarian, they sent us a little print, a little chicken ornament thing, and you know you get those for your dogs and your cats, you know from your veterinarian. But they sent it for my chicken and they had like the whole office sign it because they knew that it wasn't. You know, you were devastated.

Erica : 44:36

So there is hope.

Mel: 44:38

There is hope there is definitely hope I keep.

Erica : 44:41

I keep their little leg bands, that because they each have their own color and throughout their life I usually end up like associating them with something so like eggy, because she had that big eggy energy. We called her, you know, queen bee, b-e-e, you know, and so little bees I associate with her, and then that cobra move that she'd do when she's like trying to be all big. So I associate her with those things. So when I, when I see those things, I think of those as signs from her. But also I get all of my girls cremated because I like the idea of being able to take them with me wherever I go, and so they each have their own little box and then their ashes are in there. I have their leg band and then I have like little trinkets, so like I have a little like queen bee thing and on the inside it's got a bee and I have stuff like that. But it just the the vet. She seemed very touched because my friend told me that even after she was like she was talking about the experience, the experience, and just like man, I was touched, like that was just crazy and I will tell you right now.

Erica : 45:51

So it's what I, the biggest things that I deal with, which makes it tougher in these situations, is anxiety, because that just oh my gosh but also depression and the way, the most peaceful way that I have seen a chicken euthanized is. So first they will kind of knock them out with ketamine right Now. Sometimes, if they are that kind of far gone, the ketamine will be enough and they'll just drift off. But if not, then that's when they'll do the actual euthanasia. And so I myself, because a lot of depression meds and stuff have not worked for me and hopefully someone hears this and this gives them some peace of mind. So I have done ketamine therapy myself to deal with my depression.

Erica : 46:50

I will tell you right now if that is how they were feeling before the euthanasia even happened. I am 100% at peace with how they went. I was just you go to this place and it's not like you feel high or you're like seeing all this crazy stuff. It is just a ridiculous sense of peace and comfort. And I remember thinking while I was in that space, like man, if this is how my chickens go, like, if this is how it is, like I, I wouldn't mind like dying. You know what I mean. Like this is fricking, peaceful Like this, is comforting. So that brought me a lot, a lot of comfort, knowing that most likely my chickens, before that final drug was administered, were feeling like that and there was no fear, there was no pain, none of that. They just that was it and that that I. That really helped a lot.

Mel: 48:03

Yeah, I think this is wonderful. We we really hope this reaches a lot of people, though, a lot of people that need it, that want it, that's been looking for it If it's not for you don't worry about it, you don't even have to even blink your eyes. But I feel like there are a lot of people that will benefit from this. So where can our, where can our listeners find you?

Erica : 48:26

So we are on Instagram. We are at 2ndhend. You can also find us on TikTok at that handle. We're still figuring out TikTok, so bear with us. Tiktok's so funny. I finally oh my gosh, I only more recently caved. Oh, I feel like I'm so behind. And then we're also on Facebook. You can find us there, I believe also at 2ndhend, or you can just type out second, the word second and then hend, or if you just go to the link tree again in our Instagram profile, you can get to all of us from there and if you want, I can send you our link tree link so that you can post that and then people can find us. I'll put that in the show notes. So we have YouTube too, but I mean that's we're not as big there and that's a lot to maintain for one person all these things.

Erica : 49:27

Hallelujah, price of love so yeah, yeah.

Mel: 49:30

So I'm like we're glad that we got to sit with you and we always appreciate you when you come on and if you want to adopt, yes, hey. Yes you can adopt too.

Erica : 49:41

We're hoping to start making plans for a new batch sometime this summer. So, yeah, and that's the thing, you don't have to be in Missouri to adopt, even if you live elsewhere. If you're willing to work with us on transport, like if we have enough people in a certain place and we can get that Like we don't ship birds because we can't do that and we don't have enough people to be like here, drive them all across the country but if we can find volunteers and there are enough adopters in certain places, we will do our best to try and work something out.

Mel: 50:17

Willman may end up with a one here. We got lots of room here and my flock is thinning down so mr uh mr jangles. Yeah, I'm like mr jangles, he needs, he needs, he needs some girls. Yeah, these old girls don't even care. He needs to show them the ropes, the older girls yeah, these girls are definitely.

Erica : 50:36

They will be impressionable. So they will not know how to chicken, so he will get to mold them and teach them all the things and make them his little muses.

Mel: 50:46

These heifers don't listen to him, they don't look at him.

Erica : 50:50

Oh, he's going to be in heaven.

Mel: 50:56

They're going to think he's the greatest thing. Yeah, they're older now and some of them don't even lay eggs, so once they stop laying eggs, in my experience they definitely don't answer to his tidbitting or any of that stuff they don't have those hormones going anymore.

Erica : 51:06

They're like we don't need a man.

Mel: 51:07

It's like menopause they don't care you can get away from me, but yeah, young blood he would probably enjoy.

Erica : 51:12

All our adopters with roosters. They say that like, especially if they have like a couple roosters and one isn't getting as much love, or he's like not the dominant one, oh, he's loved up once he gets some spent girls, that's so cute, okay. Well, we thank you. We'll see you next time.

Mel: 51:29

Bye girl, okay, bye have a good one, you cute, okay, well, we thank you. We'll see you next time. Bye, girl, okay, bye. Have a good one, bye. I'm Mel, and you are listening to Wilma the Wonderhand.